new incest survivor group fellow members, looking to get down to some more healing process. have nothing particular in mind. anyone have something they'd like to throw out there?
Hi Kathy,
Two ideas I had would be to first of all have group members share what had worked for them as a part of their healing process, and then maybe another thread where folks could share all or part of their life story. That could be kind of scary for some folks, but others might find it helpful. I, too, am open to any ideas others may have. So let me go ahead and start these two new threads I talked about and see where things go from there. Thanks for your input and suggestion.
Charlie
no, thank you charlie, for making the world a better place!
Thanks for the kind words, Kathy. They are very much appreciated.
I don't know how long you've been in recovery, and it's really none of my business, but I wanted to let you know that there is life beyond all of this trauma work. As a matter of fact, a guy by the name of Earnie Larsen wrote a book titled, "Stage II Recovery: Life Beyond Addiction". It could just as easily have been subtitled "Life Beyond the Trauma". Excellent book. Ernie also wrote, "Stage II Relationships: Love Beyond Addiction", and this one could have been subtitled, "Love Beyond the Trauma". Both of these books can be ordered from Hazelden.
Hazelden started out many years ago as an alcohol treatment center in Minnesota. Over the years, they added programs for drugs, eating disorders, codependency, women's issues, and sexual trauma. They are one of the largest and best known treatment centers in the country. A fairly recent addition to their program has been their bookstore. If you are looking for ANYTHING having to do with recovery, Hazelden probably has it. One of their offerings that is very popular is their daily meditation series. These books are fairly small, about 3" by 5", but they contain a short meditation for every day of the year (they will only take you two or three minutes to read). Each meditation contains an important recovery message. These meditations are a great way to start your day. If you're interested, you can check the bookstore out online at: www.recoverysuperstore.com. Only a few of their offerings are shown online. If you'd like to take a look at everything they have to offer consider signing up for their full catalogue. That way, you'll get the latest information on everything to do with recovery mailed to your home every three or four months. Lots of good stuff in there.
And just for your information, you typically enter Stage II Recovery after you've been working a recovery program for somewhere between three (3) and six (6) years. Three years applies if you only have to work on the trauma issues, but if there are also addictions present, the six year time frame is usually more accurate. Just thought I'd throw that out for your information so you don't lose hope. You do get through this stuff, but it takes time, and a lot of very, very hard work.
your a darling charlie and will be a blessing to all on this site. i entetred aa back in 1988 so just a little of the sexual abuse started to come into play…i began to drink again in 2000 and have been sober since january 2005 and these past 6 years have indeed been the phases as you discribe. for it was only in 2005 did i seek counselling of any sort and needed much help so you could say i’m at the six mark as far as recovery…real honest recovery. i did not drink for 12yrs but the many emotional and behavioral issues were never dealt with at the core. have several of the hazelden books in our library between the hubby me. thats where is met him in aa. and to this day the sexual issues continue to dog me. i’m like jen, no interest at all at this point. u see the sex was a means to an end i found out at a very young age and so with the addiction to alcohol we were off to the races. our early marrage was shall we say like rabbits. but as the years went on it got less. then the drinkings started again in 2000 and i was virtually drunk for 5 solid years as i drank daily and lots. so in that state the sex was often, the hubby even went to the doc to get viagra to keep up. so now here i am 52 menapause i do believe is over but i have zero interest, actually makes me sick to have to even go there. i have in the past year gotten a physical illness with chronic pain due to nerve damage in the back, groin, anus and legs so i have’nt been able to “perform” needless to say this is an issue as my husband is in need of sex at least occaissionally. you can maybe give me some insite from your prospective as a mans sexual drive is not going to go away and i don’t want my husband to “have” to go elsewhere. and yet charlie part of me would be happy if he did have a someone to satisfy that part of him if would be such a relieve to have that issue always present. my husband does not ask as he does’nt want to burden me further with my health issues (and some pride and fear of rejection on hs part) so i feel the pressure to relieve him in some way very rarely these days…ok whodda thought this would turn into a therapy session charlie…any feed back from a recovery aspect as well as a mans perspective would be great…
Hi again, Kathy,
First of all, I assume the nerve damage you referred to in your back, groin, anus, and legs has been medically diagnosed. That kind of thing sounds a lot like sciatica, usually caused by a pinched nerve or ruptured disc in the lower back. And if that is what's going on with you, a chiropractor or an osteopathic physician (D.O.) might be able to help by doing spinal manipulations. The problem, however, is finding an honest, legitimate chiropractor. Most of them want to sell you their "natural" vitamin and mineral supplements, which often are of little to no help. So, whether your problem is sciatica or something else, I guess I would try talking with a BOARD CERTIFIED orthopedic surgeon or neurologist. They could tell you what's really going on with you. (There could be so many situations going on, including perhaps some gynecological concerns stemming from possible problems you've had in childbirth). But be sure the physician you see is BOARD CERTIFIED.
I'm not sure how things work in Texas, but here in Missouri where I live, most physicians ARE NOT board certified, and some aren't even board eligible. You see, once a physician finishes their internship, they take their state licensing boards. If they pass them, they are then licensed as a physician and surgeon. But to be BOARD CERTIFIED, they need to go ahead and complete a two (2) to eight (8) year residency (the length of the residency depends on the speciality), and then often a two (2) year fellowship before they are board eligible. If they pass their speciality board's oral and written exams, they are then BOARD CERTIFIED, but the certification only lasts for a few years. During that time, they need to complete so many hours of continuing education to keep their certification current. And in some states, and some specialities, they need to take another exam. There's no doubt that the BOARD CERTIFIED physicians are the best trained folks out there, which is why life and health insurance companies always use them when requesting medical exams for new potential insureds. They know that these folks don't miss anything. Usually, such physicians will be associated with University medical schools and hospitals, so check with those kind of institutions there in Houston and see what you can find.
As far as your husband's sex drive goes, I can understand why sexual activity might be a problem for you. But if you want to satisfy his needs, you might want to consider alternative approaches other than intercourse. I'm think specifically of things such as oral sex, or you masturbating him to orgasm. I don't know if either of those would work for the two of you, but those are several options you might want to consider.
As far as your lack of interest in sex goes, I wonder how much of that is related to your physical problems, and how much is a result of your sexual abuse. It is not at all unusual for a survivor to want to have nothing to do with sex after their assault. And in some case, this lack of interest can actually turn into something called "Sexual Anorexia", which is kind of the flip side of sexual addiction. A sex addict is compulsively sexual, while a sexual anorexic is compulsively asexual. Sexual anorexia used to be called "sexual aversion disorder". There's an excellent book that's available on sexual anorexia. "Sexual Anorexia: Overcoming Sexual Self-Hatred" was written by Patrick J. Carnes, Ph.D. and can be purchased from: www.amazon.com.
One other thing I would do if I were you when you're talking with the physicians about your nerve problems is ask them to check your hormone levels, including your testosterone levels. Testosterone, the male sex hormone, is responsible for the PHYSICAL sex drive in women, and it is produced by the adrenal glands which sit atop the kidneys. It is not unusual for there to problems in this area following menopause.
So there you have a few ideas to get you started, Kathy. You might need to be patient with the medical side of things since the orthopedic surgeon or the neurologist might refer you on to an endocrinologist or an OB/GYN. But if you're patient, they will eventually be able to figure out if there is anything they can do for your pain. I hope something here helps. Please let me know how things work out for you. Maybe I'll have a few more ideas for you at that point in time. Take care, and enjoy your weekend.
Charlie
hey charlie, i’ve been involved with 8 different docs including chiropractor, nuerologist, gynocologist, back doc, oncologist, primarty care, 2 pain mgt and another specialist via my hubs work that would be 9 and there is nothing to cut or shop unfortunately the pain has put me to the point of taking me own life in the past year (we’re stable now) so waiting on surgery for a stimulator implant as this is the last option available. i had disc issue in 05 but was taken care of by meds and therapy. since then the pain started slowly since. i could’nt be on my feet as long, the feet would get purple, tingling etc. i thought that this was all due to aging (i’m now 52) and had a dislike for doctors (no sexual issues). it just got real bad last year took a nose dive around the time mother committed suicide, i came home from an injection at the hospital and checked on her and yup, dead on the floor…then 2 months later daddy died. so to say the last year has been hell would be an understatement. see here we start the rambling. sorry charlie. so my health issue have nothing to do with the sexual abuse or childbirth.
my interest in sex started to decline about 10 years ago slowly. and really at this point it really would be ok great actually if i never had sex again. and i don’t mean it in a sarcastic way…i’m just tired of sex, which should be love making with my husband being an issue in my life. and i have a hand full of times in the past year assisted my husband with masterbation and its doable but i’m praying oh jesus help me do this out of love for my husband and his needs.
i know that god set us humans up a certain way and love making with your spouse should be a very spiritual act. i know these things in my head but in the “i feel” department i resent the fact that its part of a marrage, why can’t i just be loved for me…but you see my husband has stayed with me thru all the various trials and cares for me making sure my needs are met (we are not talking sexual obviously) he’s not going anywhere, he is in it for the long haul i know that. but as i stated b4 part of me wants him to find someone for that purpose…but i also know b4 god that is not right…therefore i need to get to a place where i can “be normal” if you will with the physical shape i’m in. funny thing charlie i was good at what i did oh yes and the hubby would agree…lots of practice when your a drunk you end up all sorts of places doing all sorts of things. but as i’ve been able to look at it these days it was looking for the love and attn that mom and dad were incapable of giving this is where the family friend started at about 3 or 4 and he just loved me and played with me on our vacations, he would come with the family and he would come over all the time and would always brings something, candy, comic book, something…so this is what i learned to get love and attn you do this (sexual acts) plus you get presents…so i then learned to use it to get what i wanted from some men from others thats all they wanted from me.
oh gee poor charlie you got your hands full if you get a few of me on this site. sorry for rambling but i’m sure i’ll do it again in other posts. so comments ? i’d be interessted to hear your take on this so far…with much gratitude…
The important points that I got from what you just shared, Kathy, are that you learned at a young age that you could get love and attention from others by being sexual with them. And when you are sexual with them, they will give you presents. You have used sex in the past to get what you wanted from various men, while other men were only interested in having sex with you. That's what you just said. So, what does all that mean.
Well, if you had to be sexual with someone to get any sort of love or attention from ANYONE (you certainly couldn't get it from your mother or father), that tells me that you came from a very abusive home. Your basic emotional needs were obviously never met, and it appears as though they were never even acknowledged. There was a lot of emotional, if not physical, neglect in your family of origin. You were a very needy little girl, and would have been a prime target for any child molester. Actually, you would have been exactly the type of child they were looking for. Someone who was alone and lonely, and willing to do just about anything for some adult attention.
The idea that being sexual results in presents would play right into the child molester's game as well. They often give their child victims toys and games as a kind of reward for being sexual with them. And as far as the kids are concerned, giving a little bit of sex in exchange for some attention was a very fair trade-off.
And as far as you using sex to get what you wanted from men, that's a type of behavior you'd expect from someone who is codependent since what you are doing is trying to control and manipulate others. Now, years later, you are having all of these pain issues. Now I'm not a physician, so I really don't know what's going on with the pain. But I wonder how much of what you are experiencing is you punishing yourself for being sexual? So all of this leads me to several questions.
In one of your earlier responses, you said you were in Alcoholics Anonymous. If that's true, then you have probably done, and shared your First Step with your Home A.A. group on several occasions. That's what they do in A.A. meetings. So you're working a recovery program for your alcoholism, but have you done any work that deals with your crazy, dysfunctional family of origin? Such work is sometimes called Inner Child work, Adult Child work, or Original Pain work. In addition to being a part of A.A., are you going to any other groups such as Codependents Anonymous (C.O.D.A.), or Adult Children of Alcoholics (A.C.A. or A.C.O.A.)? Have you read any books about Inner Child issues? Or have you talked with your therapist about any of this stuff? Are you just now beginning to look at your sexual abuse stuff? Are these sexual issues all fairly new to you? Are you still getting flashbacks or having memories about childhood abuse experiences?
What I'm wondering is if your recovery has progressed no farther than your alcoholism. If you haven't worked on this childhood stuff, or if there are childhood issues that haven't yet been fully explored and addressed, something there may be mixed in with all of the pain issues you've been having. The pain may be your body's way of punishing you for being sexual when you were younger. Maybe at some level you believe that some, if not all of your abuse was your fault. Survivors do that sometimes.
I also wonder if you've done any work with cognitive restructuring? All addicts of any sort have problems with their core beliefs concerning themselves and others. The beliefs they hold are faulty, but they don't realize it. However, we all act in accordance with our beliefs, whether we recognize these beliefs on a conscious level or not. All addicts have certain basic beliefs:
1.) I am a bad, unworthy person. (This belief grows out of our abuse and neglect experiences).
2.) If anyone ever really got to know me, they'd find me unacceptable and reject me. (Again, that's because of the abuse and neglect).
3.) Other people will never meet my needs so it's foolish to rely on them. (The won't meet my needs because I'm a bad, unworthy person).
4.) My most important need is ________. (Fill in the blank with your addiction of choice, in your case, alcohol. And your drug of choice is used to numb yourself out so you don't have to deal with your feelings).
5.) I am a bad, unworthy person because ________ is my most important need.
All of these core beliefs produce what they call "toxic shame". Now regular shame says, "You MADE a mistake", while toxic shame says, "You ARE a mistake". Big difference there. And the shame is what keeps you in your addiction. The way out of this cycle is to talk about your issues, which you've done with the alcohol. Now, I wonder if it's time for you to do the same thing with your crazy, dysfunctional family of origin, or with the incest? Just some things for you to think about, Kathy.
Charlie
ok charlie your really good. my mom and dad were never available in an emotional level (not until much later like in my 40's) and oh yes hun i had been extremely codependent and controled and manipulated with sex and anger (learned from mom as she was a very angry bitter woman even until her death) or the silent treatment or the poor little me victum deal. mom was abusive in her language and in her punishments daddy was the say nothing type as mom ran the house. but all my needs were met as far as food clothing schooling presents for xmas birthday parties and they really were good people. daddy was raised in an orphanage and mom her dad was a violent man and mean. someone has approuched me about eft therapy ever heard of it and whats your take on it?
did'nt really do much therapy wise exept the steps in aa. was not until 2005 that my daughter needed a therapist for her issues and i ended up working with the therapist as well for my issues as it was just 2 months after i sobered up in 2005 and i was ready to really dive into what the hell was going on. so i had been seeing her on a regular basis up until about july of last year because of my illness nothing since. but oh yeah we worked on the family issues the sex my past the whole mess. no i don't get flashbacks i do remember sometimes as you would any part of your life but they are not traumatic to me. i'm sure there is more work that could be done and indeed it could be something to do with all my ails.
in answer to all your questions i'm sure they is room for more recovery but we really did work hard with the therapy that i had. i can't say that i'm unworthy or bad at a hightened level but i do feel that on occaision but i really don't think i'm there charlie. besides all the aa work, therapy and the past year, much work has been done. i'm not sure if i tould you already but mom committed suicide here last year and daddy died 2 months later (july) mom was in april. so i'm had much time to process lots of stuff mom and daddys death and my illness getting worse i've been house/bed bound for this past year. it's been hell and don't know if your gonna be albe to make sense of all this babble but good luck! i'm better communicator in person than i am in writing. but will look forward to see what sense you make of all this.....thanks charlie your a honey for helping me
wow Kathy I guess I never realized how much we have in common-same age too! the good thing for me is Charlie helped me realize I am in better recovery than I thought.My hang-up is that I don't care to share all the gory details on this site-I know what happened and I've lived with the realization of all the decisions I've made and the promiscuity of my early adoulthood.My main pain is that I never had children-So Kathy-I'll keep praying for you and yes there is sex after menopause-you being bed-bound surely has a lot to do with everything.What I did with my husband is to express my need for intimacy and not just sex-cuddling and kissing are very important.He's aware of my childhood traumas and he's had a few of his own.And yes I've assisted in masturbation-but that seems to make everything LESS intimate not more.So think about it-I've had issues with painful intercourse all my life and my honey is so loving and tender in the bedroom(I wish I could say that about all aspects of our marriage)But we do love each other-please let me know how you're doing-and think more about discussing intimacy with your honey- I know when I'm in pain-back,knees, hips-the last thing I want is an orgasm-but a lot of time we even start intercourse without either of us finishing and we feel good for the intimacy and love.I know that the longer I go without sex ,the less interested I am;so I'll keep you in my thoughts and prayers.God Bless